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Deep breath everyone. This does NOONE any service. Fan, I don't think Ian intentionally tried to upset you, but your post is a outright flame of him. Whatever his opinion is, Ian has a right to it. Or we may as well give up the war right now. America is about differences and the right to express different opinions.
I will lock this topic if I need to. That will sadden me greatly.
Ian lives in Great Britan, I seriously doubt he checks the calander to find out what holiday it might be in the US. What was posted here to help us all honor those who died in service to our country. If you do not know it is Memorial Day and that the video was meant to honor those who are making the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq, you could very well interprit the video as only showing one side of the issue, the good happening in Iraq.
I have heard friends complain that the focus on the prison scandal is only showing one side of what is happening in Iraq and that the news is igorning the schools and the like that are being rebuilt. That does not mean that they do not acknowledge the problems, only that they want balanced coverage.
There was no disrespect intended in his post. Look at Ian's post he states that he respects all who died in service but questioned the need for people who are dieing in Iraq. "Believe me, I have the utmost respect for the majority of soldiers in Iraq who are doing their duty. American, British, whoever." He acknowledges that the prison abuse scandal is a minority of the people.
He also said: "that was the worst propaganda bullsh*t I've seen in ages."
Why isn't that flaming?
At least I spared you all the profanity.
Perhaps someone would be good enough to explain the rules here to me. If I preface my opinion (which I have a right to express also) with "no offense" am I allowed to say anything I want to without someone telling me I'm out of line?
(PC dons her flame resistant suit of armor)
My own take, Ian's statement is a personal opinion regarding the video. It was not an attack on an individual poster. I equate it to my stating that President Bush is an idiot. People can disagree with me but it is not a flame.
Ian was not saying "You suck" to a poster. He said a video was propoganda and wondered about the other side of the story. Heck, he even knew people would be annoyed that he had a different take on the video and apologized if he offended folks in his the post.
What makes Ian's original post problematic to folks on the board, I believe, is that he did not realize that the video was suppose to be a Memorial Day tribute to the Men and Women who have died in Iraq. He did not know this because it was not Memorial Day in Great Britian (or Rememberance Day as it is called there). While most of the folks on the board viewed the images with Memorial Day in mind, he respond to it as a news image.
I believe the "We both got the wrong idea comment" was that he had mistaken the nature of the video and believed that Queen GOP misread his post as a slam on the Service Men and Women in his post, which he did not. As such, he misread the original intent of the video and Queen GOP misread his post as disrespecting those who have died in Iraq. 2 misreads.
Lets face it, the war in Iraq brings out strong reactions on both sides of the issue. If people are going to post links to images, videos, and stories regarding Iraq, they should expect that some people are going to have a different opinion of said images, videos, and articles. Sometimes their reaction is going to be strong. Disagree with the position in the post but don't attack the poster.
What are the lessons here? 1) Political posts are going to bring on flamming sooner then later 2) We all need to read the full content of everyones post. If folks had read line 2 of Ian's original post they would have seen that he stated "Believe me, I have the utmost respect for the majority of soldiers in Iraq who are doing their duty. American, British, whoever." As such, he was not disrespecting the soldiers. 3) A flame is a personal attack on a poster and not the statement, no matter how strongly made, of a personal opinion.
Hi Fan,
I understand how strongly you feel, and how hard the comments hit you, but I really do think there was a misunderstanding (that PC's post defines pretty well). I do believe Ian did think it was Propaganda and general flag waving, rather than a specfic tribute, for a specific Holiday.
I've known Ian through Posts and emails for as long as I've known the rest of you, and closer than I have known some of you, for that time period, and, I think it would be greatly out of character for Ian to mean the post in the way it looks. He really is a good guy and I can't imagine him meaning what it appeared he meant. World-wide it's alot more common knowledge that the election is coming up this year, than the fact that The last Monday in May is Memorial Day, and with the current feelings for the American Government in the rest of the world, it's very easy to see how someone might think it had something more to do with re-election, than a tribute for Memorial Day. I knew America's popularity was waning in the rest of the world, but the last few weeks, I have come to realize, that public opinion world wide of America is much worse than I originally thought. I can't think of one Country, other than Israel, who is completely in our corner, every one else, it seems who is in our corner, is only the Government of that Country realizing the importance of a good relationship with the USA, but people the world over are becoming very afraid of the Bush Goverment, and there is a very prominent belief that Bush is out for World conquest.
I like you both alot, and it's heart-wrenching to see a misunderstanding like this, cause the hard feelings this has caused.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 02, 2004 06:25 PM: Message edited by: sindatur ]</font>
For clarification on my end.
Ian's comments were about the contents of a link you posted. Fair game. If you are going to post links, everyone may not feel the same about them.
Fan's post was directed at a poster. Fairly violently. I don't care who the poster is, that will not be tolerated on this board at all.
Fan, I feel for you. This is something that provoked a big reaction out of you. Something you care about very deeply. I have had loved ones who have gone to Iraq. Nothing about Iraq is easy. Noone is trying to be unsympathetic to your feelings.
I urge you to talk to people in real life. For this issue to cause to post that you would put someone in the hospital if they were standing in front of you alarms me. Please talk to people and don't let things fester.
Wow, Aziz. I haven't been condescended to quite that thoroughly in awhile. You assume I have no real life contacts and I'm in need of therapy. That's amazing, considering how little you know about me. I would never dare suggest anything like that to anyone online.
There's no need to trouble yourselves about this any further. I'll go. It seems I misunderstood all of you altogether. We don't think anything alike. My mistake.
Fan, clearly that is your call, although I hope that you reconsider. I do not believe anyone was suggesting you leave. You asked why Ian's post was not a flame and yours was, I tried to explain what I thought was the distinction. Sindutar saw how upset you were and was trying to let you know that Ian was not meaning to disrespect yourself or anyone else in uniform.
I have been in situations were someone has posted something that hit the wrong button and caused me to go off the wall. Dash Hammer at Pathfinder comes to mind.... It happens. The number of people who pointed out to me that I was flamming (granted I knew I was flamming, he just really pissed me off) was quite large. It annoyed the hell out of me and took a while for me to get over being pissed 1) with Dash Hammer and 2) with the people at the site pointing out to me that I had flammed. Had I walked away then, I would have missed out on Sci Fi Sites and this site.
I have choosen not to discuss politics or religion on the boards because I know how heated people, myself included, can get. Well, that and I tend to annoy people because I move into professor mode and start lecturing which is not always appropriate.
All I am saying is, emotions are running high. Peoples feelings have been hurt. We would all love to find a way to end this without having people walk away from posting. That may not be possible but it is worth trying.
First, I apologise unreservedly to Fan for any offence I have caused her. I have never intentionally done such on any board as long as I've been on the net.
Memorial Day is a "what?" in the UK. Sorry, but it is.
As we had all sorts of film over here including faked (?) pictures of UK and (real?) pics of US troops abusing prisoners at the time made the timing of the Memorial Day video particularly bad.
I tried to appear as unbiased as I could, but obviously failed there. Again, my apologies.
As for people who have served, my father and uncle in the RAF, one grandfather as a motorcycle courier in WW2, and the other a tank driver left behind at Dunkirk by officers who abandoned their men (they said they were coming back, honest!). He spent the rest of the war in a gulag, and had a book published about it years later. Both my grandfathers died around the time of my birth, so I never got to know them. I cherish the medals that were left to me.
As for myself I always wanted to serve in the RAF or Royal Navy, but my bad eyesight prevented it.
There, best explanation for my post I can give.
Hope you won't hate me for it.
Well, I think it is time to move our thoughts over to another controversy. One that makes you all look like absolute criminals! Did anyone ever think to remember that it was ...
[size=50 MY BIRTHDAY ][/size]
lst weeK? Huh? Hmmmmm
On a better note, I am having a home inspection done on my first home purchase on Tuesday. If all gos well, I will be in my home at the end of July!